Sofola to Buhari: Corrupt people can’t fight corruption

Chief Idowu Sofola, a Se­nior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN), has put over 50 years in law practice in Nigeria. The Ikenne, Ogun State born law­yer, was former chairman, Body of Benchers (BOB) and a Life Bencher. The 81-year-old legal luminary was also the first African Secretary-General of the Interna­tional Bar Association (IBA) and pioneer member of the Common­wealth Law Association. He is now the General Secretary of the Yoruba Council of Elders (YCE).

Pa Sofola,whose mother had three sets of twins is the last child of the 11 children from the same womb.
Although the soft spoken and unassuming but very brilliant Se­nior Advocate of Nigeria would not agree with you that theirs is a fam­ily of lawyers, he will, however, humbly tell you that, “we have four SANs in the family just as we have others in other professions.”

In an interview with Sunday Sun in his palatial Alausa, Ikeja Lagos Chambers, he spoke on several is­sues of national interest including the trending war against corruption, Fulani herdsmen whose incursion into the South-west, according to him, cannot lead to secession.

Excerpts:

How was Nigeria nation at the beginning?

Well, before independence, when our leaders were fighting for freedom, some people thought that we were not ripe for independence. And some said, why not? We have been colonized for long and ruled from abroad, so, it is time for us to stand on our feet. And when we had independence, we were happy. But, things have not been as fast as we thought. We have been taking three steps forward and five steps back­ward. But hope is not lost.

Why did some people say we were not ripe for self rule then?

Some people thought we were not ripe for independence because of the facts that they didn’t trust themselves. Then, things were put right. There were clean gutters, good roads and so on. But now, we have dirty gutters, bad roads and the likes. And now politicians are thinking more of themselves than the nation. People are not trustwor­thy. Hardly could you get a sincere politician. Abroad, when a Prime Minister completes his term, he would be looking for trucks to carry his things. Now, you see a convoy of several cars following ministers, governors to everywhere they go. There is a lot of
problem now.

But are we about getting it right now with the new or­der?

That is politics and we should leave politics to politicians. As far as I am concerned, I have never been interested in politics since I became a lawyer. When I was a stu­dent in England, I played my role in student unionism. I was part of the Nigerian Students Union in Great Britain and many others. I also at­tended meetings of Labour Party in England. All those times, I was thinking I was training myself and preparing myself to join politics when I return to Nigeria. When I came back, I discovered that politics here was not like how I knew it abroad. So, I ran away from it. That is why I never col­lected any political party’s member­ship card. Till date, I have never been a member of any political party. If there is any election coming, I look at the candidates, assess them by myself and decide who to vote for. The way they play politics in this country, I think I cannot be part of it.

Sir, but if professionals like you leave politics because it is perceived to be dirty, don’t you think things would remain bad?

Yes, I have heard that several times. For instance, I cannot tell lies. I think it is a sin to tell lies. I cannot steal. For example, there was a Hausa colleague of mine on the board of a company. We were discussing one day, that was several years back, and I asked, Alhaji, politics and religion, are they the same? And he said, no. He said politics and religion can never meet. And I said, but you are an Alhaji, a religious man. He said, yes. He said, look at Balarabe Musa (former civilian governor of Kaduna State), he did not do anything wrong in office, but we re­moved him. And I asked, why did you remove him when he didn’t do any­thing wrong?! He said, yes, because we want our man there. I then asked, how can you now combine that with your religion? He said, if that happens, you will just go to the mosque and start to say, ‘astagfiru Laha.’ Meaning, seeking forgiveness from God. And by that, I think it was not right for me to be a politician.

When as a lawyer you say you can’t tell lies, what then is your comment on people’s percep­tions that lawyers are liars?

Number one: It is wrong to say law­yers are liars. Lawyers are trained to say the truth and nothing but the truth. Why they say we are liars sometimes is that, the law says, if you charge a person to court with an offence, you have to prove the ingredients of that crime. Take stealing for example, all the ingredients, one by one, if they are seven and you proved six, the judge will just be looking at you. And af­ter the person has pleaded not guilty, at the end of the day, it may be a no case submission. That the prosecutor has failed to prove the case and give reasons. He has not established the fact that, when he took the thing, he took it away with the intention to deprive the owner of the ownership of the thing permanently. The owner lost some­thing and you have to prove it but you have not proved it. If it is true that the man stole, you have to prove that he stole. As a lawyer, that is why I believe lawyers don’t tell lies.

When client comes to me, I look at the matter and everything. If I found you have no case, I will say, I am sorry. So, go and settle the case. Someone who is in love with money will be hap­py to fight it for you. If I know there is no case there, I will tell you.

Does that suggest that there are cases you may not likely handle?

Of course yes. If I think that there is no merit in the case, I will tell you there is no merit in the case. Why should you go to court to file action, spend money to pay me, when I know the case has no merit? No, I don’t do it. There was a case, for example, some years ago.

Justice Lambo decided that case. This client went to a lawyer, the lawyer looked at the papers and said, I am sorry, you have no case. He went to another lawyer and that assured him that he would win. The lawyer asked him to go and do certain things and he was glad to pay the lawyer. And they went to court. At the end of the case when Justice Lambo delivered the judgement, he made some orders. He dismissed the case. And he said the orders are, one: that the lawyer should refund the fees paid to him. Two, that the lawyer should refund the amount for filing fee. Three, that the lawyer should personally pay the cost of so much and so much amount. That is a good judgement as far as I am con­cerned. If the man comes to you and you found out that he cannot succeed, tell him he cannot succeed. Don’t let him go and waste his money.

Okay sir, is it legally ethical for a lawyer to reject any case no matter how bad?

No, no, no, it is not like that. You cannot reject a case because for in­stance, if a man is charged to court for murder or manslaughter or any serious offence like that and he has no lawyer. Government must get a law­yer for him. So, you cannot reject a case because you don’t like the person or because you want the man to go to jail. No. But, if you look at the case and you learn that there is no merit in the matter, tell him there is no merit. Why would you want him to go and waste money as legal fees, filing fees and all other fees and come to fail at the end of the day? Tell him there is no merit in that your case. That is not rejecting the case.

Can we safely say that Sofola’s family is a family of lawyers?

We can rightly say that there are lawyers in the Sofola’s family. We have quite a number of lawyers in the family. And we are lucky, my late brother, the former Attorney General and Min­isters of Justice (Chief Kehinde Sofola), was a Senior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN). He had a son who is also a SAN. I am a SAN. I also have a son who is a SAN. We are lucky. It is the grace of God. But there are many in other professions like business, banking, insurance and engineering.

What can we say inspired you to read law?

For me, when my brother came back from England as a lawyer, he impressed me. His um­brella, his suit, his bowler hat and the way he went to court, the way he dressed impressed me. During my holidays I went to court with him and the way he used to address court and all that en­couraged me. But more than that, when I wanted to go to England to study, they asked me what I wanted to study? I said look, I just wanted to go and improve myself. But when they said I should mention one, I chose law. And there is no regret. I am enjoying being a lawyer.

How lucrative is law profession?

Well, it depends on the way you look at it. As far as I am concerned, I am happy. There are law­yers who charge and over charge. But when a cli­ent comes to me, I pity him. I will look at him and say, if I ask him to pay so much, can he afford to pay? And I have been happy with the little I have been taking because I am contented.

For example, I don’t have a house in England. I don’t have account anywhere than Nigeria. No­body forced me. I just keep to myself. I have a house in Lagos and a house in Ikenne, my home town. That is all but I am happy.

When we started, things were better. But, for the competition now, because of the turnout of lawyers every year. For example, last month, they called 3,600 to the Bar. Just one call! And another batch is coming, I think in December. And when I became a lawyer in 1962, how many of us were lawyers then? But back to your ques­tion about being lucrative, I think as a lawyer, you cannot starve. There are many openings for you as a lawyer.

Are you comfortable with how SAN­ship is being awarded now? How was the process during your on time?

Well, I think they are trying. It is not easy. Well, in our own time for example, they said you have to have a number of cases in the Court of Appeal, in the Supreme Court, which you needed within two year of your being considered for SANship. But now, they say, cases you finished within ten years to the time. And then at our time in 1989, maybe, the number of people applying was be­tween 15 and most 20. Now, number of people applying is in thousands. And then because they don’t want to spoil the market, they limit the number they take every year. At our own time, it was maximum of five. It was sometimes two, sometimes four. But, not more than five at a time. But now I think they do 15 or 20.

As an elder statesman, a Yoruba lead­er and General Secretary of the Yoruba Council of Elders (YCE), are you satisfied with Yoruba nation’s situation in the Nigerian context?

No. You see, what worries me more than anything else is the fact that you have a group of Yobuba saying one thing and other groups would say other things. Ideally, I would have loved all of us, as elders to come together in one group. But if it is not possible, and I think it is possible. If people decide to be in different groups, I think a meeting should be in place for leaders from various groups so that, on very important issues, we shall sit down together and reach one conclusion, a joint stand. Then, we shall be respected. The other people will respect us. But if this group says something and another group says another thing contrary to it, we are belittling ourselves.

We of the Yoruba Council of Elders say you are free to belong to any political party of your choice. If you like, you may not belong to any political party. But when you come to our meeting, forget your politics and consider the interest of Yoruba race and interest of Nigeria. Look at politicians now, when one belongs to this political party, he would not see anything good in the other side. If the other side is doing something good, instead of commending them, they will condemn them. And you yourself, if your leaders are doing something bad, you will not tell them. We are not fair to ourselves. But, if we allow our people to belong to different political parties, let them fight for the race within their various political parties. We are going to campaign for Yoruba race and if there is any problem, let them let us know and we do the fight for them.

How do you feel about the incessant crisis being caused in the South-west by some Fulani herdsmen?

You see, the people who are replying for the Fulani herdsmen miss the point. What the Yoruba leaders have been saying is this; everybody is free to move, to pass and re-pass any public roads. But a person is entitled to have peaceful enjoyment on his own private property. If you have your landed property or your farm, and any person who says he is free to go with his cattle or anything on the road, is okay. But why should they come to your own private proper? By coming there alone is trespass.

And not only that, when they create problem by arresting people, kidnapping, killing and maiming, that is going too far. Those responding on their behalf did not really comment on what they did that it was wrong and sympathize with Chief Olu Falae and the people offended. They kept quiet until Yoruba people got together to take a stand that they are now coming out to say something. Initially they should have come out to condemn that, what they did was wrong and they should not do that again. They were expected to say they should beware of things they do. But they are talking of freedom and things like that. If they are entitled to move, are they entitled to move to private property? The only people that are entitled to your private property are those you invite to your property. People you want to see and not people you don’t want. Not people to disturb your peace and damage your things, kill you and maim you.

Can re occurrence of such acts lead to secession?

I don’t think so now that they are trying to see that those people are wrong. What we are saying is that they are one of us. What we expect is to say what they did was bad and they should not do it again. I don’t think it can lead to secession. It is good that we came together and we spoke with one voice. Although, some groups of Yo­ruba leaders went to criticize that decision, I don’t think it could lead to that. I think God will solve all the problems.

With the situation of the country now, is there any hope of silver lining at the horizon?

We have prayerful hope because the way things are going, honestly, is not encouraging. If you are in government, you want to take the government as belonging to you alone and not for all of us. If you are outside the government, you don’t want to see anything good in what the government is doing. To me, I think you have a means of let­ting them know instead of attacking them always. That is not good. The problem really is most of us have no conscience. And we don’t have the fear of God. If you have the fear of God in you, you will be careful the way you do things.

Everybody is shouting corruption. Who is not corrupt? I read in the Bible that somebody was condemned to death by stoning. And everybody came with a stone to execute the judgement. But they could not find anybody to cast the first stone because they were also guilty of the offence the condemned man committed. Their conscience was pricking them that how could you stone somebody for an offence you too have commit­ted? If the man has been stoned to death, might be he would have been forgiven by God. But you that did the stoning when you know you have committed similar offence would have been pun­ished by God.

And the followers don’t see anything bad in what their leaders are doing. If you want a leader to succeed, you tell him when he goes wrong so he can amend. And instead of going to the media to criticize a leader, approach him. Find a way of reaching him and letting him know that what he is doing is not right. Then you are helping him. If you don’t do that, you are not helping him but pushing him astray more and more.

If we can have the fear of God in all of us, it is then we will begin to do things right. If you know something is wrong and you do it, then you have committed a sin. So, the fear of God is very important.

With the picture you just painted about corruption, can President Muhammadu Buhari win the war against it?

It will be difficult. In my mind and in my view, it will be difficult. I feel very sorry for them too. If they make some people examples by charging them to court, and those people belonging to the other side would say it is discrimination, selec­tive prosecution and other things like that. And if they turn round to say they want to punish those who are with them on their own side, they would say, ah! The person who put you there spending his money and all that to win election and you want now to punish him? And the other thing is that, this corruption is everywhere. It has gone beyond politics. Go to the State and National Assembly, Local Governments. Go to even the Judiciary! Corruption is there. So, how is he go­ing to do it and finish it? Even the people who are being investigated see them behind and give them something.

Are those fighting corruption also corrupt?

Of course, very corrupt. If you know you are corrupt and you go to report somebody that he is corrupt, and they brought to you as a judge that is corrupt to investigate somebody that is corrupt, and you prosecute the person that is corrupt when you also are corrupt, you are all sinners. So, it is a question of appealing to ourselves to keep away from corruption.

If I were President Muhammadu Buhari, I know it is not easy, I would say, from now that I am there, anybody who tries corruption whether he is my son, my brother or whoever, would go in for it. That would be more like it because when you say you want to look back, it would be diffi­cult. Yes, I agree to look back it is good to collect the money stolen.

I told my late brother (Chief Kehinde Sofola), when he became the Attorney General that, don’t bother to say you want to prosecute those who stole. My advice is, tell the government to col­lect whatever they can from those who stole and move on. Look at the time we are spending now fighting corruption. We are wasting time that should be spent to do things that will be advan­tageous to the nation. How longer can we con­tinue to do this? Can they be able to finish it? It is not possible. I pray they succeed. For example someone like Buhari, there is nobody who could say he ever caught him in corruption. And the Vice President (Professor Yemi Osinbajo), too is a very religious person. I know him very well. He is very honest and straight forward. But then, what about the people that are going to work with them? It is not easy but I pray that God will help them to do the right thing and help them to get correct solution.